Ethics

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Matt
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He doesn't have releases, as illustrated on his facebook page and the fact a lot are labeled "as seen" and "just caught".

And that's all the story I need to know. No releases = no commercial use.
Basically it boils down to someone capturing a street scene, talking to the person, not getting any permission to use it commercially, and then using it to endorse a multi-miliondollar business. I'm sure the Orthodox Jews he captured would love to be associated in the window display of DKNY's new lingerie line. I'm sure they wouldn't sue the shit out of everyone involved. As soon as he accepts compensation, donated to charity or not, he opens himself of to being the one that not only has poor morals, but also to litigation. He just has no right to sell someone else's likeness for endorsement of a commercial product. That's RULE #1 of people photography. And I'm pretty sure he was going to break it.

Why would DKNY go for blog photos? Because stock street photos of people's faces/likeness... are crazy expensive and rare. Why? because rarely will people sign a release. Rarely.. less than 1 in 25. Stock photo companies will not accept them without a release. Designers shouldn't use them without buying from a reputable stock agent. And people shouldn't bitch for compensation, donated or not if people use them unauthorized. Takedown is the only reasonable action, and an apology to the people victimized, and let's stop thinking the photographer is the victim here, from the photographer is the moral thing to do. Where is his apology to those people? Oh.. I can't hear it over all the "Big company victimizes little street photographer" bitching and whining.

Use some common sense. Correct course of action would be "No, DKNY, you cannot use these photos because we have no releases. You and I would be liable for defamation damages. Thanks, Goodbye." I'm not negating what DKNY did, but still, on the topic of ethics, the bigger breach of ethics is someone trying to sell street photography as commercial for the endorsement of a product.

Anyways... :pitty:

Off to sell all my Chinese street scenes to Comstock... if they don't pay me, at least they can pay the YMCA.. that makes it OK for the Chinese people who will unknowingly be endorsing PandaExpress soon, right?!
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Matt
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Just because the "little ol' me" attitude of this photographer ticked me off...
being a "street photographer" in NYC is about as easy as walking down the street with your shutter continually pressed.
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DKNY's response is in.
Since its founding in 1989, DKNY has been inspired by and incorporated authentic New York into its imagery. For our Spring 2013 store window visuals we decided to celebrate the city that is in our name by showcasing "Only in NYC" images. We have immense respect for Brandon Stanton aka Humans of New York and approached him to work with us on this visual program. He declined to participate in the project.

For the Spring 2013 windows program, we licensed and paid for photos from established photography service providers. However, it appears that inadvertently the store in Bangkok used an internal mock up containing some of Mr. Stanton's images that was intended to merely show the direction of the spring visual program. We apologize for this error and are working to ensure that only the approved artwork is used.

DKNY has always supported the arts and we deeply regret this mistake. Accordingly, we are making a charitable donation of $25,000 to the YMCA in Bedford-Stuyvesant Brooklyn in Mr. Stanton's name.
The photographer wasn't a victim, Matt? Would you feel differently if it was a travel agency who (allegedly) stole 300 of your photos?
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Matt
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The photographer is A victim. But like the internet hype surrounding this bullshit chooses to ignore, as you any many other people either biased by being a photographer, or because people are genuinely biased about companies being evil, he had no permission to resell those likenesses anyways.
Why does everyone choose to ignore the fact this jackass tried to sell out street photography, for which pick up pretty much any book on the subject in any of the hundreds of outlets in NYC and read the legalities of such (I have 3 books myself on this) , for which he totally fucks over the people he photographed "for his blog." He had a say to SAY NO, and THIS IS WHY. Now he's bitching because he not only had the photos stolen, he didn't get the "more money" he wanted. again :pitty:

Obviously you didn't read my post. I'm not justifying DKNY. They stole images. We don't know why. And I'm pretty sure it was a mistake. Designers are usually better than most people about legalities of image use. Not only am I a designer, I was in a relationship with someone who did store displays for a living. I have a good idea of the process.

It's like the drug dealer taking drug buyer to court for getting ripped off. I have no sympathy for someone getting crying screwed over doing something unethical.
What he is doing is "Bitch by internet - I am the victim" He's totally ignoring his wrong, as is everyone who is "Wow.. those corporate fatcats at DKNY must pay with their lives!!!" on the net, and not considering the faults fo the photographer's bargaining, inability to see his wrong, and reluctance to apologize.

By him accepting any compensation, EVEN if it goes to charity, is essentially bargaining the use of those photos. Which means, he is then liable for any litigation of the subjects that do not want to be represented in those displays. Giving the YMCA money means nothing, other then his acceptance to allow use. And it's not his decision. It is the decision of the subjects of the photos, who have to grant permission in written form. Period. Why is this not being considered? Because people are biased in their assessment of the ethics of the situation. Like I said.. this is a drug-dealer-getting-ripped-off case. I have little sympathy.

He was wronged. He should contact them and get the art taken down. He shouldn't' make a contract for him or for charity. He has no right. If he did, he welcomes any lawsuits of the 300+ people in those photos. Smart? Ethical? This thread is about ethics, isn't it?

In my case, I have firsthand experience:
1. Issuing takedown requests of unauthorized use of my work
2. Requesting (and receiving) compensation for unauthorized use of my work.
3. A travel organization not paying for photos they asked to buy.

So I know how it feels to have work used. But never did I attempt to sell commercially any likeness of someone that did not give me permission. I even have waivers signed for photos of people I submitted for Capture Rochester, including my sister signing for my nephew's photos.

I have never sold a photo of someone without a signed waver fo that individual or their guardian. In fact, that's the standard of the industry. And that's where we start looking at the moral decisions of this situation. We don't start where the person is bitching and moaning.. start and the beginning and see where the ethics began to breech. Right there. When someone who makes a blog for journalism and hobby starts to sell out to DKNY and doesn't THINK that perhaps.. him pressing a shutter doesn't turn MR and MRS Smith on the Street into a money-making yet free set of models for him to profit from. A simple "No, there are no waivers" would have ended all of this. But I guess whoever bitches louder on the internet wins.

In fact, I have some stellar photos I made of the Sterling Renaissance Festival, that I not only don't put up for sale... I did not sell it to people requesting to buy prints of it... why? because as a photographer, I have to operate my business legally and without subjecting myself to litigation. Despite those performers granting permission of their individual likeness by performing, the Sterling Renaissance Festival does not authorize people to sell photos of their property or employees. How do I know that? Because I take the time to figure that out before I work out how I'm going to price something. Also, because I'm not a complete moral fucktard like that photographer.

In the case of some random travel agency taking my photos. I have much more legal ground to stand on.
1. As a competing travel website, I generate revenue (although small) from my photos.
2. I am well aware that I am due compensation for photos that I own all rights to and I know the fair market value of those properties.
3. I don't pursue compensation for photos I don't own the rights to distribute commercially. I pursue them to be taken down.
4. You won't see me bitching about how I was trying to sell photos of people I didn't get permission from to the travel agency and they didn't offer enough. WAHHHHH. :'( Because I don't pull that bullshit. As someone who would never NEVER want someone using my image to endorse a product.

Anyways, keep thinking the photographer did no wrong. Ignore he started it. Ignore he takes no responsibility. Ignore he shows no sympathy for anyone but himself and YMCA. What a great guy.
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Matt wrote:Obviously you didn't read my post.
Anyways, keep thinking the photographer did no wrong. Ignore he started it. Ignore he takes no responsibility. Ignore he shows no sympathy for anyone but himself and YMCA. What a great guy.
Feel better?

I sure hope so. Anyway, I learned a lot from what you said and the way you said it.
A lively discussion is one thing, but never did I imagine that by starting this topic I would be one of the subjects under attack. Lesson learned. Thank you. Keep up the good work.
You are truly an inspiration.
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Kelly
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Ahaaa! On the topic of whether he had model releases, here's what I found. He had none. It was part of the negotiations....
[quote]
.....DKNY may have another problem, though. Stanton doesn’t have model releases for his images, he told PDN. “Part of DKNY’s original pitch to me was that I would obtain model releases from 300 of my subjects. Seeing as though no agreement was reached, that was never done.”
Whether that could come back to bite the DKNY and its parent company, LVMH, Inc., remains to be seen.[/quote]

(Full article here: http://pdnpulse.com/tag/brandon-stanton)

Remember that the photographer didn't approach DKNY, nor was his intention to ever sell these images. (simple answer to why there are no releases) They approached him. The negotiations weren't only about money, but whether or not he could obtain the releases. Could be why the whole thing fell through. We don't know. I imagine the photographer does feel badly that these people had their faces plastered in this window without their permission. And if there are any truly unethical bad guys in the saga - he is not one of them.
I am strong, because I've been weak.
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Matt
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Ahh.. i see now that he's confronted/interviewed about it, the focus is less of "waah" and more on the true violation of ethics here: that people are willfulness being used to endorse products.

Anyway, How did they get the print-res images? ;) I wonder how they are going to track down those people shot walking in the background or were shot as they passed by and were not tagged in his photos (he tags the people he talks to who happen to have FB accounts, but this does not represent all the people represented in his blog or in the misprinted DKNY ads). That "they were going to get waivers" thing is bullshit and he knows it.

Anyways, enough of this jackass. I'm getting so tired of the "I have a bog, thus i have an army of complainers that can defend to the death my one-sided story about how an evil corporation is harming little ol' me that never does anything wrong" bullshit that's flooding the internet (thanks, reddit). This is where the first person to cry the loudest wins is always the victim. Anyways, he and his effortless shitty photography wins because he who cries the loudest against heartless corporate america on the internet, wins a lot of backing from couch crusaders willing to not get of their fat asses to shop at DKNY in the name of justice!!!
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Are ya sure they really are what you and I would call print-res images?

If you look at (the photo of) the store window display, none of them look much bigger than an 8 x 10. We don't know what the quality really is, do we?

How did they get them? ;)

Probably something like this: access HONY's Facebook page, find desired images, right click, save, repeat, and done. Just like I did here. Collect 'em and trade 'em. Or hang them in your store window halfway around the world and then when caught, claim it was a mistake. That's how.

Followed those steps and voila! (Make it just a touch bigger for the window because who can see what's really what through dirty glass anyway? :mrgreen: And yes, I did pick a feet shot because I know how much you love them! :P
Image


Look at it this way, Matt. The real winner is you. Look how many people have checked in to view this entertaining topic in just 72 hours. 320 ish. You're welcome. 8)
I am strong, because I've been weak.
I am fearless, because I've been afraid.
I am wise, because I've been foolish.

- Unknown

My NYFalls.com Team Page
Scenes from a Public Market
New York Historic
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