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Kelly
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Salt. Flowback and produced water are highly salty. This is because salts are added to the fracturing fluid and also released from the geologic formation. Produced water is so famous for salinity that the hydrocarbon industry often refers to it simply as “saltwater” or “brine.”

In the Marcellus Shale, flowback water has been measured to contain 32,300 mg per liter of sodium. For comparison, EPA guidelines call for a maximum of 20 mg/L in drinking water, although the agency is considering increasing that somewhat.

Industrial chemicals. Flowback and produced water contain chemicals that have been injected into the well to facilitate drilling. For example, in the Marcellus Shale, flowback water contains high concentrations of sodium, magnesium, iron, barium, strontium, manganese, methanol, chloride, sulfate and other substances.

Hydrocarbons. Produced water can contain hydrocarbons – including the toxics benzene, toluene, ethylbenzene, and xylene – which can be freed during the drilling process.

Radioactive materials. Water returned to the surface during drilling can carry naturally occurring radioactive materials, referred to by the industry as “NORM.” Flowback and produced water from several large U.S. shale formations has been found to contain the radioactive element radium. When produced water is salty and rich in chlorides, radium tends to be present in higher concentrations.

The EPA allows a maximum of 5 picocuries of radium per liter of drinking water. Produced water has been found to contain radium levels as high as 9,000 picocuries per liter [pCi/g].
Radium? Benzene?
All of its cousins, too?!
Sure!
What the f***!?
Let's spray it all over the most highly traveled roads and let its residue travel hither and yon wherever cars can carry it - even though there is no monitored standard for filtration!
Excellent idea.
Spray me again.
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Mikell
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You sounds supremely pissed off...as well you should be...as well we ALL should be!
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Kelly
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yeah.
well.
the thing is - I have no idea if my original post was misunderstood or if people truly believe it's "just salt".
either way, i know more than i did about the liquid this morning, and I had a wonderful discussion about it with my incredibly bright #2 son! ;)
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No fighting the fear movement when it comes to fraction or spraying "chemicals." I'm no fan of fracking, but when I see people throwing around chemical names and quantities (context excluded) I have to step up and spray a dose of reality.

Let's first remove all doubt that whoever wrote that BS is mixing EPA recommendations of limitations for human ingestion with concentrations in a contain solution. That's like saying this: " FDA recommends people stay indoors when the temperature outside reaches 42 degrees, but the sun is over a million degrees centigrade."
So right then and there, that source is completely misleading and with a malformed argument. It would be thrown out of any peer-reviewed forum based on that, within seconds. In other words, it holds no scientific reason.


No science or reasoning is going to fight a 5 second google and a half-assed anti-fracking article written up with no sources. But I will. Because what I read is bullshit fear mongering with some trace elements of "throw some chemical names out to confuse people into thinking they are bad."

First of all, the fact it was sprayed gives it a negative view right off the bat. Road salt it sprayed is a lot of regions of the world. Usually mixed in with sand or gravel. We have it lucky here. We are living on top of oceans of rock salt. We use Rock salt here and that's really all we know. Salt solution is more expensive, but more effective than solid salt. Rock salt is cheap and better for large quantities.

While I'm not for spraying any shit anywhere, not only are the numbers you posted simply blown out of proportion, it completely ignores that fact that those "toxins" dilute extraordinarily in the environment. Guess where the radium (among other radioactive isotopes that were not mentioned in your quote that are certainly found in brine) comes from? Plants, animals, rock, Limestone! Where do they get trapped when they go back into the environment? Back into those things. anyways.. the radium issue is laughable and alarmist. I would love to see the credible source behind those numbers. Anyways... here some real facts about radium http://www.epa.gov/radiation/radionuclides/radium.html
It's naturally occurring and found in high levels in a lot of rock around here, and in some things we eat, such as leafy green vegetables and kale. Maybe we should ban that too.

High concentrations of sodium? No! Not in SALT? Will someone please think of the children?!
I'm sorry, but the scientist in me can't take the fear mongering seriously with bullshit claims of "High sodium on our roads" argument.
"sodium, magnesium, iron, barium, strontium, manganese, chloride, sulfate" Those are all sea salts. I would expect them to be found in high concentrations in Finger Lakes rock, salt, mud, plants, and water. This is what collects around your faucets and in your pipes over the years. Better ban those things before it's too late.

We should all get on to banning Dihydrogen monoxide while we are at it.
The Dihydrogen monoxide argument applies here. Just because people say <insert chemical name here> is found in such-and-such concentrations... people tent to not know the context, the science, the pathology of such things, and they just assume its a bad thing.

Also the claim that fracking brine dumping not being regulated is simply false. ANY dumping of organic solvents is regulated, not only by the EPA, but also the DEC. That's just simply an incorrect statement. It is just that there are no regulations on brine mixes themselves, but the toxic components, specifically the organic solvents (which is the only thing you should be concerned about here). All fall under the clean air and water acts.

So instead of getting angry at XXX for having XXX in concentrations of XXX on XXX, let me put it in perspective:

Is dumping fracking brine over the roads a good thing? No. BUT spreading of chemicals does drastically help to dilute it. It's much better than storing large quantities of it in one place (see Onondaga Lake).
Is dumping rock salt all over the roads better? a little better. But where were the complaints then?
Is fracking brine worse that existing point pollution (companies legally dumping their wastes into the air, water, and on land)? Not even close. In fact its a drop in the bucket.
If fracking brine worse than non-point pollution (Normal people dumping bleach, detergents, motor oil, gasoline, solvents worse than those described above; pumping pesticides, and fertilizers onto our soil and into our drains) any better than fracking brine? No. Non-point source pollution is the number one source of toxic pollution and the number #1 threat to air and water quality in the world. Yep, you using soap and bleach, your car leaking motor oil, your car and home exhaust, your tires leaving tread on the road, that bucket of "pine sol" (an organic solvent) dumped down the drain, all contribute to the #1 one pollution source in the world, in New York State, and most likely, your county. And that's the reason why beaches close. Why streams choke up. Why our biodiversity is abysmal. If you plot the total of potentially toxic chemicals in fracking brine (over a period of time) next to this, you won't be able to detect a "trace" of it.

Fracking brine isn't new. Fraction has been around for decades, as is the re-purposing of fracking brine. Calm down about fracking brine and get back to dumping bleach (hypochlorites) down the drain to make your socks whiter; check your messages on a phone (for which the smelting of 40 different elements used methods so environmentally destructive, that the regions there were mined will not be inhabitable for thousands of years); and enjoy the smell of those benzine-family organics in the "pine" scented candles and "fresh cotton" air fresheners. There's a lot more to worry about.
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Yeah, I was surprised by Kelly's post so I asked my Dad who is a retired publics works director and was responsible for spraying and salting roads. He said the spraying they did was two types one was a brine solution that they made of salt and water and that worked best for 20-32 degrees Fahrenheit. The second was a sodium chlorite mix that worked best from 0-20. Possibly some areas use fracking brine but not that he was aware.

Matt is spot on with the radioactive part too. Most granite counters are radioactive to some degree and we haven't banned them. Farm lands are a major contributor to polluting our water but you do not hear much about that either.
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Did you all completely miss the fact that I’m not even mentioning water pollution caused by the brine? I simply said I don't want it sprayed on me.

If it's alarmist to wonder and put up for discussion what being exposed to it full strength might do - even for a mere 15 minutes, as I was - then I'm guilty as charged.

I didn't say I think it should be banned. If you go back and look, what I said was that I don't want fracking brine sprayed at or near my car and me. I would like to see a little more control over how it is dispensed so it's not capable of coating cars, even if they are the required 100 feet back. (yes, that warning is on the truck)

My concern was that I drove directly behind a truck dispensing it for a good 10-15 miles. You saw the picture. It's not just a drizzle. It's free flowing and in a wide path. And I only recently found out it wasn't "just salt". It was full strength fracking brine whatever-it-is all over my car and in my respiratory system. I could taste the salt on my face. I doubt a car's cabin air filtration system was designed with this particular scenario in mind.

David – the fracking brine I’m talking about is used by only a handful of counties here in NY and is sprayed well prior to the winter season and not during active snowfall. That would explain why my encounter with it happened on a warm and sunny October day. It was certainly unexpected.

Matt, following this truck which was simultaneously spraying both westbound lanes of the NYS Thruway made passing impossible. There were no exits for at least 10-15 miles. The reason I posted information on full strength brine is because that is what my car was covered in and what was in the air I was breathing. And I don't think I’m unusual in that I’m forever accidentally rubbing up against my salty car and making a white mess on my clothes. Oops - who doesn't brush it off quickly with hands you may or may not immediately wash?

Now perhaps you see the reason I posted the full strength figures? (I understand your point about not knowing the source, but it did give me a guess as to what I was covered in and how much more concentrated the "ingredients" are than as found in drinking water) I encountered it pretty much directly from the tank and for a period of no less than 15 uninterrupted minutes. It was not a contained solution once it coated me.

I would prefer not to find myself being sprayed with ANY brine, especially fracking brine, without an option for escape. That's what I originally said - and that's what I think any reasonable person would say.

And David, before you ask. I was asleep. I woke up to go to the bathroom. Checked the message boards for crazy spammers who work this time of night, and found you instead. ;)

EDIT: a more recent article - from yesterday - discussing the brine - here.

Still don't want it - or anything - sprayed directly at me, unless I have the option to escape.
Last edited by Kelly on Wed Dec 11, 2013 8:25 am, edited 7 times in total.
Reason: added yesterday's article to my post
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I am wise, because I've been foolish.

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Mikell
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I don't know enough about fracking and the waste water it produces to make a good assessment about the use of the "brine" on the roads but it doesn't put my mind at rest to hear any arguments that the toxic and carcinogenic elements in it are very low amounts...or that we have naturally occurring radium sources and it's all around us anyway...or that there are far worse sources of pollution in our environment to worry about.

Our environment is under constant stress and our bodies are accumulating the pollutants around us...a little bit here...a little bit there...nothing to worry about...it's only some small percentage of what's "acceptable" ...if only we didn't have to worry about a little thing like adding up all the parts over a lifetime!

And I also don't believe a vastly underfunded EPA and strong energy lobbying groups/money/invested political leaders will protect us.

This recent article isn't about "salting" roads with fracking brine ...but it points out the overall lack of good regulation of this industry (because of political lobbying interests): http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/1922 ... -pollution

QUOTE: "Fracking wastewater and solid wastes such as drill cuttings (leftover broken bits of rock), can be radioactive and laced with toxic chemicals, but a loophole established over two decades ago exempts fracking wastes from federal hazardous waste rules. Rep. Matthew Cartwright (D-Pennsylvania) has introduced legislation in the House to close this loophole, but the bill has little chance of leaving committee, according to a GovTrack.us analysis."

I'm with Kelly on this one...Matt - you may have some facts on your side...but they aren't all that reassuring....I guess you just have more faith in our regulatory system than I have ever had ....EVER!
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:up: Mikell! I know that it probably goes without saying, but I totally agree with you and Kelly. I'm just an old hippie tree-hugger. :oldlady:
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