[Matt]

I will certainly accept information from you, but I cannot credit you in that manner. Since this information is given away for free, and I accept advertising and there may be other revenue sources in the future, I cannot reasonably and indiscriminately credit a source other than the knowledge of NYFalls.com as an entity, without prior agreement that you won't sue for a share of revenue (if any) or damages to you.

FYI: information posted in this forum (with the exception of copyrighted materials and photos that belong to you) becomes, in a sense, property of NYfalls.com for the use of building and maintaining the site. I'm not stealing information, but when you accept the agreement when you join, you commit to being a part of a collaborative environment providing information for the site to use. It’s obvious you posted info on the web, but if conflict should arise, I just want to make sure that uou know that posting info has collaborative influence over the main site of NYfalls.com and you can not maintain ownership and the rights to ownership of information provided. Translation: You can’t sue me for $$ if the site ever makes $$. (Though if the site does make money… Team members may get some rewards like T-shirts, caps and such).
My policy is that you may promote yourself in any way in your post signatures, or you may contribute as a volunteer team member, but I am not in a position to take a partnership any further unless on a contractual or strictly volunteer basis.
I will take any information you provide. It would be especially helpful to have updates on private falls, but the limitations of promoting you must be limited to your signatures in the forum or as a volunteer team member.

Nyfalls.com will continue to list and update privacy information as it comes available. It’s up to the members (including myself) to come across this information and report it correctly. If that information does flow freely, then the Waterfall index, will not meets it’s full potential.

[Falzguy]

Your making this much more complicated then it needs to be. Sounds much easier to put up my own page.

Matt wrote:
Nyfalls.com will continue to list and update privacy information as it comes available. It’s up to the members (including myself) to come across this information and report it correctly. If that information does flow freely, then the Waterfall index, will not meets it’s full potential.


Huh?

[Matt]

I'm saying: If you have the information, provide it. Otherwise don't bitch that it's not there.

[Falzguy]

Several falls owners have told me not to give you any information. Quoting one "If he is serious about preventing people from trespassing then he should do the research."

A while back you mentioned that you are using books and web sites to gather your information. Isn't this like steeling information? Both are copyrighted material.

All I ever asked for is a credit line for providing some information to your site. I volunteered to give you information in exchange for a line of type acknowledging that I contributed some of the info. Nothing more. You brought up the money issue.

[Matt]

I'd rather not have any personal attacks posted on this message board.
I removed the above comments. My apologies.

Constructive citicism is encouraged here. I think the posts Falzguy is making are reasonable and if I become tired of debating the issue, I'll make it known.

[tjconheady]

Posting of private sites is certainly not a guarantee that visitors will trespass. Certainly, I would think that their falls will be documented on this site as a wonderous nature scene of NY, rather than an advertisement. Perhaps promotion of a "pro-falls-nature" attitude might encourage these individuals to post their own photos of their waterfalls with caption stating private property.

Ultimately, if people can access it, they will, posting or not.

[Falzguy]

Nearly all of the owners I have talked with do not want maps or photos of their waterfalls posted on the net (me included). Several days ago an owner asked me to remove the photo of her falls from my site and I did so. She has had trouble with people parking on her property and blocking her from accessing it. She commented to me, like numerious other landowners have, that "No one takes the time to ask for permission."

I believe most people who see a photo of a waterfal and a location map would think "Cool, I'll have to go there and check it out."

[tjconheady]

I think having a website in which it says, call this number or visit this address for permission would be beneficial

Plus, there's nothing illegal or immoral about posting a topo or sat map of anyone's property

[globalnomad]

What you need to be asking is who are the people that are doing the trespassing. Isn't waterfall conservation also about responsible preservation? I would think that forming a coalition of private waterfall owners and opening up a "help" site for how to prevent unwelcome guests would be a proactive way in which to deal with this kind of thing. Simply put. If what you are doing is bringing about the same results, you need to change what you are doing least you continue to get the same results. "No Trespassing" signs as just as good as a lit path to the falls. Through funding and other resources one could solicit the help of conservationists and their gear to identify the trespassers.

#1 why are they coming there?
#2 what are they doing there?
#3 when are they coming there?
#4 who are they, and can we turn their curiosity into help for the land owners. Are these people really bad and corrupt individuals who seek out the destruction of natural beauty? Or are they simply ignorant admirers who cant contain their curiosity?

Honestly, if you have a "natural wonder of the world" in your back yard its eventually going to cause you to have visitors. You don't complain when the deer or the bear drops by for a look. What is it about these other trespassers that is so distressing? You never shot the bear for taking a dump in your falls, so why are you calling the sheriff to help put up walls around your little wonder of the world?

In response to the persons plea, "What gives people the idea that they have the right to see my waterfall?"

Who gave you the authority to wall of one of Gods natural wonders? Perhaps it is you who need to be reprimanded for your arrogance and sin in your heart. That this is for your eyes and your eyes alone. God made this world in all its beauty for all mankind. If you are having problems perhaps you should read your bible and ask God to forgive your selfish heart. Many of our problems are brought about by our sinful hearts. Hundreds of years ago man was free to roam this land and explore all of its natural wonder.

If you own a strip of land with such a wonder on it you should stop thinking of yourself as a land owner with "trespassers" and begin thinking of yourself as a caretaker of one of Gods works of beauty. Your actions should reflect the best outcome for the land itself, for it will be around long after you are dead and gone. Your name being nothing more then a forgotten moment in time.

It amazes me that people are soo small that they think of themselves in such a grand ideal. Honestly, there is much more merit in immortalizing yourself or your family name in the registration and public conservation of such a place of beauty then there is in hoarding it to yourself. Who was Howe? Most of us probably don't know, but his cavern is internationally famous. Taking this thought to mind, one must also consider that there is a stark difference between a public park where there is a single individual for every 10,000 square acres or more and your land of a mere 100 acres with your family to look after it. It would be hard for me to find truth that everyone who wants to see your falls, does so because they like destroying nature and bothering people who tend to keep to themselves.

I have once heard that when someone smiles it boosts the health of anyone around them just by being in the presence of that person. If you are a steward of natural beauty that can bring this to mankind, why are you so afraid of making the world a better place? Are there not enough of us around who would be more then happy to assist you with properly maintaining these natural ecosystems? Thinking about this topic makes me go back to the sanitary hospitals with white walls and the sickly stench of over cleaning. How many people lie in agony locked in this white prison awaiting death? I have often wondered the good to mankind that scenes of beauty in a place like that can do.

There are only 2 things in life that I know to be true constants, change and light. If we stomp our feet and refuse to change, we only hurt ourselves. God created this world of natural beauty for everyone, it was man who walled it off and continues to strangle the life from it.

Form a coalition of conservation stewardship, utilize individuals like Matt to assist with maintaining them and give back to the world a chance to see how beautiful or planet really is. Are you a waterfall ecosystem expert? Do you even know if your own actions are destroying the very thing you wish to protect?

On my travels in America one thing that amazed me was what I saw while I was staying in Arkansas. There is a system of privately owned caverns in the Ozark mountains called Mystic Caverns. In the most recently discovered cave were some of the most amazing flowstone formations I have seen to date. All wonderfully preserved and taken care of. It was awe inspiring to behold. The other larger cavern was the one that had been privately looked after for some hundred years or so. The awful sight of that cave and what the people who had cherished it had unknowingly done to it, and purposely done to it, was enough of a lesson in how to treat a cave environment properly to stay with me for a life time. Blackened by smoke, marred by vandalism of the caves natural resources, and forever dulled by unknowing admirers who mistakenly destroyed the very beauty that they touched. And all of this because of the lack of knowledge in how to care for a cavern, or what it really was. Before anyone was there the larger cavern must have looked 100 times more spectacular then the more recently discovered cavern.

....

It is true that a single branch can be broken by the weakest child, but a bundle of them task even the strongest man. The more people who enjoy your natural wonder and cherish it, the more support you have to leverage when removing unwanted guests. If you are having problems, more often then not, your own actions are to blame. We cannot get rid of the bad people in this world, but we can strengthen ourselves by knowing more of the good ones.


-cherish and take care of our earth for the generations to come.

[Matt]

globalnomad,
Great points… and very well said. I never really thought of it that way. This is becoming a very good discussion. I'm glad you joined the forum and look forward to more of your thoughts. Welcome!

Although it would be nice to have a waterfall on my property, I really don't care for the responsibility of keeping such an attraction private and would rather give it to a land trust for shared use. People have their own reasons for maintaining a private falls. Some selfish, others practical. Some visit public and private falls for selfish reasons, others like to share and bring or tell others. This will always happen. People will always tell others about a positive experience or place, who will then seek it out for themselves. This site is all about sharing these beautiful vistas... responsibly. I want others to experience these sites. Unfortunately I, as well as the site, respect the law and do not condone trespassing as a way of sharing it.

Hopefully this community can encourage landowners to explore the benefits of shared use. For those that don't, I have no problem with. It's a disappointment, but the general trend is that further generations tend to lean on the site of land grants or sales to conservation organizations or governments. The Finger Lakes Trail is another option for shared use that is very popular. As the site grows, revenue grows and landowners join our community, I'm hoping we can become not only a gathering point, but a resource for both educating property owner's about land trusts (if they are interested) and falls enthusiasts about respecting private property.

I like how you compare the life-span of a geological feature, such as a waterfall, to the speck on the timeline a landowner would be in comparison. A landowner can become more of a spec by immortalizing themselves... donated land often carries the names of the benefactor… in fact a lot of the times, it’s part of the deal. This is one way for a family to leave a legacy. (Watkins, Corbet, off the top of my head.)

On the subject of posting maps. I feel strongly that the locations of falls are freely available and will only get worse. I'm hoping to at least follow up the locations with some responsible info.

[Falzguy]

For the last two years there have been no signs of any kind on my waterfall property. I got tired of replacing them.

The heavy trash can I placed there with a sign "Toss your litter here please. Thanks!" somehow disappeared.

Littering, vandalism (cutting of live trees for fire wood, cutting wire fences), and dirt bike riders ripping up the area are the major problems.

People don't bother to ask for permission. They just go there, have a picnic and leave their garbage and uncovered fecal matter behind.

I don't complain when the deer or the bear drops by for a look because they have respect for the land.

No, I've never shot the bear (or deer) for taking a dump at my falls. This is part of nature. But a so called civilized human using the creek for a toilet I find upsetting.

[tjconheady]

Bottom line: the photos of private waterfalls are NOT property of the owners of the waterfall. If you don't want the pictures taken, enforce your desire for no trespassing. And if you do, don't ever call yourself a naturalist or conservationist ever again.

[mhenecke]

Bottom line: the photos of private waterfalls are NOT property of the owners of the waterfall. If you don't want the pictures taken, enforce your desire for no trespassing. And if you do, don't ever call yourself a naturalist or conservationist ever again.

i agree compleatly

this i show i see it:
1) if its not posted as no trespassing then i get one free pass (ignorance is a beautiful thing)
2) i can take a picture of anything as long as its for personal use and im not trespassing ( <a href="http://www.krages.com/phoright.htm">Photographers rights</a> )

[Frank Broughton]

The maps will stay. Private Property notices will continue to be posted whenever I am notified of updates.

I agree with this. In reality no one owns any land in America - skip your taxes and see how fast it remains in "your" control. I know two different issues but nevertheless a falls is a falls and this site lists falls - states when they are on private property - very appropriate!

Sorry for bringing up a real old and hotly contested thread but I am reading old posts and have a say - right?

[Frank Broughton]

Twenty three landowners have told me that they are against the posting of location maps on any (mine included) web site.

I would have loved to ask Scott this question: how did you phrase the question. That would make a big difference in the results.